Property Tax Reform: Doomsday for Local Governments or Overreaction?
The property tax cutback legislation currently being considered by the Florida House of Representatives has provisions to force local and county governments to control their spending. Additionally, the legislative options would provide for a roll back of local property taxes.
Needless to say, the local and county government groups are hollering “foul”! We are hearing doomsday scenarios of major reductions in police and fire protection and other public services. Lobbyists for local and county governments are even spending much money (some of it taxpayer money) on campaigns to defeat any legislative tinkering with the local budgets.
Should the Legislature stay out of local and county budget issues and scrap its plans to put some controls on local spending?
Give us your comments and vote in our Straw Poll on the property tax issue. Connect to the link below:
http://www.insitefulsurveys.com/Survey.asp?SI=723120412448
posted by Blog Master @ 1:14 PM
33 Comments:
The cries of foul ring very hollow to me. Neither the city of Ocala commissioners or county commissioners have pledged to cut spending.
Just lip service by the county on Zero Based Budgeting [ZBB]and a modest "we will try it in two or three departments" by council whose finance director spent almost 20 minutes patting himself on the back publically about what a terrific job he was performing ,saying not one word about decreased revenues which are inivitable in the future.
These people just do not seem to get it. The message of the defeated road tax went over their heads.
Oh, the arrogance of power, the insensitivity to the plight of the middle class of Marion County who see themselves living pay check to paycheck, who go without healthcare, who sacrifice to fund college,WHO PAY TAXES until it hurts.
Could it be taxation without representation? Well, almost.
Local governments need to budget more wisely, create more contingency funds for the rainy days ahead.
Local governments should quit whining and using scare tactics to cover up their own inabilities to get on with meeting the fiscal and fiduciary responsibilities that they are elected to perform.
Other local governments in Florida are doing just that.
Clayton Ellsworth
I'm with you Mr. Ellsworth. Scare tactics aren't going to cut it with the taxpayers. I hope the representatives listen to the taxpayers and not just the bureaucrats in county government who fear for their jobs.
Formula for politician job security:
(-tx) + (-sd) = js
County Commissioner's motto"
"I never met a dollar I couldn't spend."
Good idea but doubt it will fly. Don't want to get anyone with too much knowledge involved in the county budgets.
We tried a watch dog approach several years ago and the dem on the commission killed it by insisting the members be governed by the sunshine law, which meant none could talk with another between meetings.
Watch dog efforts have to be independent, and have to get ready for lots of backlash. Even in my case, my project is a necessity, not pork. Yours if pork not a necessity.
I haven't seen that the legislature's plan will do much good. Schools and someone else if exempted, in fact everybody is exempted with a unaminous vote, and the savings to me would be minimal on my home, and zero on commercial property.
The answer is zero based budgeting, but I do not believe there is a majority on the commission or council with the enrve to fully institute it.
We could start the savings by tossing out the idea of running the railroad through all of south east ocala's residential neighborhoods. Done 100 years ago, it made sense, except the businesses and railroads wanted it where business was -- hence the sweeping turns into and out of Ocala. Yes, by the way, I do live 1000 feet from where it would come as proposed by my dear friend Ed Anderson.
--pwf
The legislature better control its own spending before they start telling the local governments what to do.
Regardless of the outcome in Tallahassee, local governments are going to see revenue shortfall because the economy is headed south locally and nationally, and in my opinion, much more rapdly and severely than most economist's are predicting.
So they should quit whining, suck it up, and act responsively. To pay lip service to SBB is predictable but irresponsible.
No politician or staffer want's their ox gored.To stick their heads in the sand only creates a bigger problem which will bite them all in the posterior.
Clayton Ellsworthh
I would like to see a dollars & cents comparison of the various alternatives and how they impact individual homeowners and taxpayers. Anyone seen anything like that?
I’m not as interested in the impact reducing property taxes has on local government. My opinion, they will have to just work a little harder at justifying what they are spending. That’s a good thing. I’m for capping local budgets.
Don
(OTOW)
Don said:
"I would like to see a dollars & cents comparison of the various alternatives and how they impact individual homeowners and taxpayers.I’m not as interested in the impact reducing property taxes has on local government."
Great question! The senate R's are working on their proposal now. I'll get the info and post the links to it so we can all get up-to-the-minute news. Thumbs up on your statement about local gov!
From the Central Florida Political Pulse:
[Even as lawmakers push ahead with plans to cut property taxes, a separate measure now headed for the House floor would make it harder for local governments to raise any other tax, assessment or fee.
In an easy vote, the House Government Efficiency & Accountability this morning approved a bill (HB 1483) that would force city councils, county commissions, school boards and other districts to approve any tax increase by a three-fifths vote, rather than a simple majority. The restriction would apply to other assessments and fees, as well, such as the impact fees for everything from police to parks that local governments levy on new homes.
The bill would also require voters approve a tax increase by a three-fifths margin whenever a referendum is necessary. The provision would have blocked the half-cent sales-tax increase for schools that 59 percent of Orange County voters approved in 2002.
Backers say the change would prevent cities and counties from undermining whatever property tax cuts the Legislature passes this spring by raising taxes somewhere else. And while the provision isn't yet part of either of the massive property-tax packages that House Speaker Marco Rubio pushing, it's a good bet that it will be at some point -- Rubio included the three-fifths requirement in his "100 Ideas" book.]
Senate session today. Watch it live:
http://www.flsenate.gov/Session/index.cfm?Mode=Video%20Broadcasts&Submenu=8&Tab=session
Getting agreement on a property tax plan is not just a Republican problem. The Democrat plan is also facing much difficulty.
Senate Minority Leader Steve Geller held a press conference yesterday to release the Senate Democrat Plan. However, it turned out that some of his Democrat Senators haven't quite signed on to the plan and offered several points of disagreement with the Plan
Ah, property tax consensus is not just an issue for Republicans!
Anon said In an easy vote, the House Government Efficiency & Accountability this morning approved a bill (HB 1483) that would force city councils, county commissions, school boards and other districts to approve any tax increase by a three-fifths vote, rather than a simple majority. The restriction would apply to other assessments and fees, as well, such as the impact fees for everything from police to parks that local governments levy on new homes.
maybe we outta sent house r's a note and tell me no motion is approved in a city county school board unless it has three of the five members. if they wanna change something they gotta make it 4/5ths.
I think that bill reads 3/5's for the electors (us) or 60%.
Here's a quote from Marion County Manger pat howard. This comment is exactly the reason the mentioned bill has benn filed. Apparently Mr. Howard is not keeping up with this legislative session.
From the Star Banner:
"On an unrelated note, Tesch also raised the issue of property tax reform proposals now before the Florida Legislature that could slash property taxes. County Administrator Pat Howard said Marion County has been conservative about tax rates and could increase local millage requirements to make up for any funding shortfalls caused by legislative action.
"We're going to take the money one way or the other," he said.
I apologize for my awful spelling and typing.
From a recent Quinnipiac Poll. Numbers 1 and 3 should tell the local governments something about what voters are thinking.
(1) Voters support 69-23 reducing government spending to 2001 levels.
(2) Voters oppose 48-44 eliminating the property tax on primary residents and replacing that revenue with a 2.5 percent sales tax.
(3) Voters are willing 49-40 to accept fewer government services to lower property taxes.
(4) Voters say 63-28 percent that the Sales Tax is fairer than the property tax.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1297.xml?releaseID=1033
That poll is very interesting, thanks for providing it.
Regarding the dumbass statement maed by "The General" about taking our money maybe we could get a few people to write to the commissioners and gripe. Here is a sample letter:
Let's all write to his bosses:
charlie.stone@marioncountyfl.org
stan.mcclain@marioncountyfl.org
jim.payton@marioncountyfl.org
andy.kesselring@marioncountyfl.org
barbara.fitos@marioncountyfl.org
Dear Commissioner:
The remarks made by our county administrator with regards to "taking our money" displays a disconnect between the board and your constituency. The county administrator will conduct himself according to the direction of the electorate and not any special interest. If this is his standard practice we respectfully ask that he be removed. We make the laws not Mr. Howard and he should be reminded of that fact.
Respectfully yours,
Mr. or Mrs. Voter
Regarding CA Howard's remarks.
What a jerk. Mr. Howard displays much of the same arrogance as the commissioners. Get real folks, cut the fat out of the County budget.
I am on the public record with the Ocala City Commision as stating that Zero Based Budgeting will cut at least 10 % of the city budget, with the county, I will say at least 15 %.
This is easy for me to say based on my observations both in the private and public sectors in the past.
Clayton Ellsworth
General Howard's statement does sound a bit stupid. Do you suppose the newspaper misquoted him? You know the Star Banner does screw up every now and then.
You might be interested in following what your neighbors in Alachua County think about whether or not there is fat in our city and county budgets. Seems to be tracking in agreement with the feeling in Marion County. Visit the Gainesville Sun Blog:
cunninghamblog.gainesville.com/default.asp?item=549420
GO GATORS!
The 2006 Marion County Annual report is very revealing from the stand point that there is absolutely no "forward " statement regarding prudent management of revenues, budgeting,and frugality needed to deal with a inevitable short fall in revenues.
Just business as usual. Let the good times continue to roll under the deft skill of General Howard and the ineptness of the County Commission.
Clayton Ellsworth
Forward planning or thinking and our county government---LOL!
PROPERTY TAX STRAW POLL-FINAL RESULTS
Here are the results (61 respondents):
(1) There are several versions of Property Tax relief being debated in the Florida Legislature.
Which of the following would you prefer?
34% ----Pay some property taxes on primary homes (with about a 45% reduction in taxes) based on a tax rollback and future cap in your property tax.
48%----Eliminate property taxes all together in exchange for a higher state sales tax (an increase of up to 2.5%).
18%----Neither of the above options.
(2) Should the State Legislature put caps on local and county government spending?
84%----Yes
16%----No
Clayton,
Why don't you come up with something more substitive than just govt doesn't know how perform their fudiciary responsbilities to the taxpayers?? Just use zero base budgeting?
How about this.
You, Thurow, Ferguson, and some of the other experts on this blog should get together and come up with a list of services, as currently provided by our current local govt, and decide which of them should be eliminated completely. Maybe govt can run somewhat efficient, maybe there is just too much of it that needs funding. You want local officials to do a better job? Maybe they should start by cutting some of the services!!!!
Anon says to Clayton "Why don't you come up with something more substitive than just govt doesn't know how perform their fudiciary responsbilities to the taxpayers?? Just use zero base budgeting?"
At least one part of the puzzle IS zero based budgeting. As it is now, department heads are told they can not increase their budget MORE THAN 5.5 percent. That type of
thinking is how the federal govt had a $2 million budget thru the years for a milk program that had not been used for 15-20 years but was in the budget and no one stopped it until Gingrich took over the house in 1994 (and I was not a big fan of his).
The last time I made a run at a local department, the county ended up dropping the park dept budget by more than one third when infomation I provided as to its then mismanagement.
But better than Clayton, me and others making a run at this, how about YOU finding any $10,000 item would want to cut and let's start there. I am sort of tired of having to carry the water for people who aren't willing to carry it themselves. -- pwf
blogmaster, you should set up a sitemeter on this site to see the kind of traffic you're getting (in case you don't know already.) You can get it free here:
http://www.sitemeter.com/
Being this is mostly the only blog in Marion County discussing politics, I'd imagine its very well-trafficked.
I'm surprised the number of people supporting eliminating property taxes for a 2.5% increase in sales tax isn't higher.
Chris Thurow,
Wow I have been missing out....so much to learn on this thread. Have you considered running for County Commissioner?? Gosh I love it...you said you care about how tax reduction effects citizens and not the government. Whew, what a pleasant change in thought? Remember, wasn't the Boston Teaparty about a 1% tax??
What would those great men think of this mess we are in now??? I have fought battles at the school board WINNING MOST for the past 18 years and my kids are out. I have backed off the last 2 years as mine were finishing up and gosh
with no watchdogs they are barreling out of control again. However, I consider the school system absolutely hopeless. The only way to save it would be to slam their doors and reopen under all new management. LOL I don't understand County government as John Lund has handled that over the years while I battled the schools. He has to be as burned out as I am??? I don't know if I have a second wind but if others were interested in a PRIVATE citizens watchdog group I would eat my Wheaties and join up. I certainly won't be in Tallahassee. Ha! I will be there though to lobby on an issue dear to my heart. Dems should choose Dems and Reps should choose Reps. Otherwise how can STATE parties be held accountable for the way their representatives vote in Tallahassee?? I think you have a place here in government but the niche just hasn't been found by you yet. I have a lot to learn and hope I have the energy for it?? Rocky always said that the Stacy's "gift" is CHASING and not to RUNING! LOL Running for office is not our specialty but we are quite good at chasing!! That is why the hair is standing on end on that other thread because they KNOW me and KNOW I don't lie and KNOW I go to the mat for what I believe in. That scares the pants off of them AND IT SHOULD. Ha!
Property values (and therefore property taxes) have gone up drastically in recent years. The local governments were OK before they went up and they will be Ok when they go back down (at the insistance of the state government)
Only a 7% reduction required for Marion COunty. That ought to be easy enough to find.
On item of many that's killing county budgets: Contributions to the Fire Firefighters State Pension Plan and scheduled overtime for firemen. Check it out.
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